Legislature(1993 - 1994)

03/03/1993 08:00 AM House RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
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               HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                              
                          March 3, 1993                                        
                            8:00 a.m.                                          
                                                                               
                                                                               
  MEMBERS PRESENT                                                              
                                                                               
  Representative Bill Williams, Chairman                                       
  Representative Bill Hudson, Vice Chairman                                    
  Representative Con Bunde                                                     
  Representative Pat Carney                                                    
  Representative John Davies                                                   
  Representative Joe Green                                                     
  Representative Jeannette James                                               
  Representative Eldon Mulder                                                  
  Representative David Finkelstein                                             
                                                                               
  MEMBERS ABSENT                                                               
                                                                               
  None                                                                         
                                                                               
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
                                                                               
  HB 172:   "An Act relating to the wildlife conservation tag                  
            and to entry onto state game and wildlife                          
            sanctuaries, state game refuges, state range                       
            areas, and fish and game critical habitat areas;                   
            and providing for an effective date."                              
                                                                               
            CSHB 172 (RES) MOVED FROM COMMITTEE WITH A DO PASS                 
            RECOMMENDATION                                                     
                                                                               
  Committee discussion of Subcommittee's recommendation on                     
  Mental Health Lands issues.                                                  
                                                                               
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
                                                                               
  Representative Bill Williams                                                 
  State Capitol, Room 128                                                      
  Juneau, Alaska  99801-1182                                                   
  Phone:  465-3424                                                             
  Position Statement:  Prime Sponsor of HB 172                                 
                                                                               
  David G. Kelleyhouse, Director                                               
  Division of Wildlife Conservation                                            
  Alaska Department of Fish and Game                                           
  P.O. Box 25526                                                               
  Juneau, Alaska  99802                                                        
  Phone:  465-4190                                                             
  Position Statement: Supported HB 172                                         
                                                                               
  Geron Bruce, Special Assistant                                               
  Alaska Department of Fish and Game                                           
  P.O. Box 25526                                                               
  Juneau, Alaska  99802                                                        
  Phone: 465-4100                                                              
  Position Statement: Addressed amendments to HB 172                           
                                                                               
  Nancy Lethcoe, President                                                     
  Alaska Wilderness Recreation and Tourism Association                         
  P.O. Box 1353                                                                
  Valdez, Alaska  99686                                                        
  Phone:  835-4300                                                             
  Position Statement: Supported HB 172                                         
                                                                               
  John George                                                                  
  Alaska Outdoor Council                                                       
  9515 Moraine Way                                                             
  Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                        
  Phone:  789-0172                                                             
  Position Statement: Supported HB 172                                         
                                                                               
  Mary Forbes, Volunteer                                                       
  Alaska Environmental Lobby                                                   
  419 6th Street                                                               
  Juneau, Alaska  99802                                                        
  Phone:  465-3366                                                             
  Position Statement: Supported HB 172                                         
                                                                               
  Tom Garrett                                                                  
  Alaska Visitors Association                                                  
  234 Gold Street                                                              
  Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                        
  Phone:  586-2480                                                             
  Position Statement: Supported the motivations of HB 172, and                 
                      suggested amendments                                     
                                                                               
  PREVIOUS ACTION                                                              
                                                                               
  BILL:  HB 172                                                                
  SHORT TITLE:  WILDLIFE CONSERVATION TAG AND FEE                              
  BILL VERSION:                                                                
  SPONSOR(S):  REPRESENTATIVE(S) WILLIAMS,Phillips,Larson,                     
  Davies,Bunde,Finkelstein,Porter,Ulmer,James                                  
  TITLE: "An Act relating to the wildlife conservation tag and                 
  to entry onto state game and wildlife sanctuaries, state                     
  game refuges, state range areas, and fish and game critical                  
  habitat areas; and providing for an effective date."                         
  JRN-DATE     JRN-PG               ACTION                                     
  02/22/93       413    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  02/22/93       414    (H)   RESOURCES, FINANCE                               
  02/24/93       445    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): JAMES                              
  03/03/93              (H)   RES AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 124                      
                                                                               
                                                                               
  ACTION NARRATIVE                                                             
                                                                               
  TAPE 93-24, SIDE A                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
                                                                               
  The House Resources Committee was called to order by                         
  Chairman Bill Williams at 8:07 a.m.  Members present at the                  
  call to order were Representatives Williams, Bunde, Carney,                  
  Davies, Green, James, Finkelstein and Mulder.                                
  Representative Hudson was absent at the call to order.                       
  HB 172:  WILDLIFE CONSERVATION TAG AND FEE                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN BILL WILLIAMS announced the meeting was being held                  
  by teleconference with additional sites in Anchorage and                     
  Valdez.  He said the committee would first consider HB 172,                  
  and then discuss the recommendations of a subcommittee                       
  chaired by Representative Hudson, which met to consider the                  
  possible introduction of a Resources bill on the Mental                      
  Health Lands issue.                                                          
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS, PRIME SPONSOR of HB 172, explained that                   
  the bill creates a program which would allow, and in some                    
  cases require, non-consumptive users of Alaska's wildlife to                 
  help pay for management of the resources.  The fee would                     
  purchase a tag or pin that would support wildlife programs,                  
  as well as entitle the purchaser to apply for admittance to                  
  several specific viewing areas.  Walrus Islands and McNeil                   
  River would require the tags initially, he explained, and                    
  added the program would otherwise be voluntary.  It was                      
  hoped that with a small fee, large numbers of people might                   
  be enticed to purchase the tag voluntarily, he stated.                       
                                                                               
  Number 100                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS noted the fiscal note accompanying HB 172                  
  was based on a fee of $15.  In response to concerns raised                   
  after introduction of the bill, he drafted five amendments                   
  to resolve those concerns, and told the committee that each                  
  amendment would be explained and considered after testimony                  
  on the bill was taken.  He noted amendment one would exempt                  
  the Stan Price Bear Sanctuary in Southeast Alaska from the                   
  entry fee requirement, because that facility is jointly                      
  managed with the U.S. Forest Service, which will not allow                   
  an entry fee.                                                                
                                                                               
  Number 128                                                                   
                                                                               
  DAVID KELLEYHOUSE, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF WILDLIFE                            
  CONSERVATION, ALASKA DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME (ADF&G),                    
  offered strong support for HB 172.  He explained that a                      
  similar bill had been introduced during the 17th                             
  Legislature.  The wildlife tag and fee, he said, would                       
  provide a way for those who did not hunt or fish to                          
  contribute to wildlife management.  House Bill 172 would                     
  provide a stable funding source, he added, by creating a                     
  user-pay funding base.  The ADF&G hoped to market the                        
  program to tourists who view wildlife.  He suggested the fee                 
  amount be set within the ADF&G rather than being established                 
  in statute.                                                                  
                                                                               
  Number 185                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. KELLEYHOUSE recommended provisions be made to exempt or                  
  waive the fee for groups like school children who visit                      
  wildlife areas.  He noted HB 172 would allow those with                      
  valid hunting or fishing license to access the resources                     
  without purchasing the additional tag, and anticipated net                   
  revenues of $60,000, which he called a modest estimate,                      
  based on a $15 fee.  If sales to tourists were strong, he                    
  said that would allow expansion of the program.                              
                                                                               
  Number 200                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS noted Representative Bill Hudson had                       
  joined the meeting.                                                          
                                                                               
  Number 205                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE CON BUNDE indicated his strong support of                     
  individual consumers contributing to management of the                       
  resources.  He said more broad participation should be                       
  encouraged, and asked Mr. Kelleyhouse his views on how this                  
  might be accomplished.                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 219                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. KELLEYHOUSE noted the fee was for facilities that were                   
  actually staffed, and personnel costs made those facilities                  
  more costly to maintain.  He added tourism was anticipated                   
  to be a substantial source of revenue.                                       
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE commented that a pin would be a good                    
  idea to increase visibility of the program and encourage                     
  sales.                                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 235                                                                   
                                                                               
  GERON BRUCE, SPECIAL ASSISTANT, ADF&G, explained that some                   
  of the amendments offered were technical in nature,                          
  specifically amendments three, four and five, which were                     
  developed after hearings were held on a companion bill in                    
  the Senate, during which questions arose regarding the                       
  subsistence use of resources, and potential penalties for                    
  not paying the tag fee.  Those questions were addressed, he                  
  explained, in amendments three and five, respectively.                       
  Amendment four, he said, established guidelines to allow the                 
  ADF&G discretion to adopt regulations setting the fees and                   
  other administrative factors.                                                
                                                                               
  Number 286                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE referred to amendment number five, and                  
  Mr. Kelleyhouse's statements that those holding valid                        
  hunting or fishing licenses would not need to purchase the                   
  tag.  He asked whether it might be assumed that subsistence                  
  hunters would abide by the law and buy a license.                            
                                                                               
  MR. BRUCE affirmed that was a fair assumption.  He noted                     
  there were subsistence activities that did not involve                       
  hunting or fishing, such as berry-picking, which would not                   
  require a license.  He said amendment five clarified those                   
  activities were not going to be subject to the fee.                          
                                                                               
  Number 304                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN commented that the program might be                 
  hard to enforce.  His concern was with the fiscal note and                   
  its reference to part-time and contract personnel, with                      
  revenue going up.  He asked Mr. Bruce what would happen if                   
  revenues were not high enough to cover the costs of                          
  administering the program, and whether there were safeguards                 
  to address that possibility.                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 320                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. BRUCE responded first to the question regarding                          
  enforcement.  The tag would only be required in areas where                  
  entry was limited and where the ADF&G had personnel.  He                     
  cited McNeil River as an example, where visitors were                        
  escorted into the area.  Other areas would not require the                   
  tag, but voluntary participation would be encouraged.  He                    
  said it was not likely the program would "run in the hole."                  
                                                                               
  Number 353                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE related the success of the duck stamp                   
  program, which he said appealed to people who collect                        
  stamps, people interested in the conservation of duck                        
  habitat, and also people who hunt.  He hoped the program                     
  proposed in HB 172 might appeal to people interested in                      
  contributing to wildlife conservation in general, even those                 
  who might not directly use the resources.                                    
                                                                               
  Number 371                                                                   
                                                                               
  NANCY LETHCOE, PRESIDENT, ALASKA WILDERNESS RECREATION AND                   
  TOURISM ASSOCIATION, testified by teleconference from                        
  Valdez.  She referred to her written comments on HB 172                      
  contained in members' files.  She repeated her strong                        
  support for the bill, and commented that she has been                        
  involved and interested in this issue for many years.                        
                                                                               
  Number 391                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE referred to Ms. Lethcoe's written                       
  testimony and her reference to vendors of the tag.  He asked                 
  whether she envisioned the vendors selling the tags on a                     
  commission or percentage basis.  He also asked whether the                   
  vendors might promote the tag.                                               
                                                                               
  Number 404                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. LETHCOE responded that people have approached her at her                 
  place of business asking whether Alaska has a watchable                      
  wildlife tag, because many visitors are familiar with such                   
  programs in their home states.  She indicated she would be                   
  interested in including a check-off option on her company's                  
  invoices, and would rather see all funds received from sales                 
  of the tag go toward wildlife conservation programs, but                     
  allowed that others might market the tag more if they                        
  received a commission.  She commented that the way HB 172 is                 
  written, it appeared the only place to purchase the tags                     
  would be outlets that sold hunting and fishing licenses.                     
  This might cause a loss of sales to non-hunters or fishers                   
  who did not frequent those establishments, but might                         
  purchase the tag if it were offered at a gift shop.                          
                                                                               
  Number 432                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE asked what Ms. Lethcoe believed might                   
  be the most marketable physical form for the tag to be                       
  offered in.                                                                  
                                                                               
  MS. LETHCOE preferred to leave those decisions to the                        
  experts, but personally thought a pin would be nice.                         
                                                                               
  Number 443                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE addressed his next question to Mr.                      
  Bruce.  He asked what the normal commission was on tags.                     
                                                                               
  MR. BRUCE responded that either $1.00 or 10% usually went to                 
  the vendor on tags.  He added the program proposed in HB 172                 
  would not restrict the type of vendor who could offer the                    
  tag.  He said gift shops would be able to enroll with the                    
  ADF&G to offer the wildlife conservation tags.                               
                                                                               
  Number 465                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE ELDON MULDER asked Mr. Bruce how the ADF&G                    
  planned to market and promote the wildlife conservation                      
  tags.  He foresaw a tremendous potential for sales of the                    
  tag, if adequately promoted.                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 462                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. BRUCE suggested those in the visitor industry be called                  
  upon to work cooperatively in promoting the sale of the                      
  tags.  He commented on the potential for displaying posters                  
  and other materials promoting the tags at airports and ferry                 
  terminals.  If a revenue stream was generated, he                            
  anticipated advertisements in national periodicals.                          
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER suggested many of the same groups that                 
  have "screamed the most" about other programs should be the                  
  first to sign up for the conservation tag program.                           
                                                                               
  Number 490                                                                   
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON referred to Ms. Lethcoe's prior                    
  comments on where the wildlife conservation tag would be                     
  available.  He perceived, as the bill was written, the only                  
  place would be through vendors of fishing and hunting                        
  licenses and tags.  He suggested an AMENDMENT to HB 172,                     
  page 2, line 25 ADDING, AFTER "fish and game license" the                    
  words "and other outlets at the discretion of the                            
  commissioner."  He explained this would provide the ADF&G's                  
  Commissioner the opportunity to market what could become a                   
  collector's item.  He compared the marketing potential to                    
  the successful efforts with duck stamps.  He asked Ms.                       
  Lethcoe and Chairman Williams, prime sponsor of HB 172, how                  
  each might feel about such an amendment.                                     
                                                                               
  MS. LETHCOE responded that Representative Hudson's                           
  suggestion sounded like a good way to handle the question.                   
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIR HUDSON said he would offer that wording as an                     
  amendment when the committee came to consideration of the                    
  amendments.                                                                  
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE MOVED to ADOPT the AMENDMENTS.                          
                                                                               
  Number 522                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVID FINKELSTEIN commented that it would be                  
  correct procedure to act on the amendments one by one.                       
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT NUMBER ONE,                    
  making changes as described in the amendment packet prepared                 
  by George Utermohle of the Division of Legal Services, dated                 
  March 1, 1993 (8-LS0650/A.1).                                                
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked if there were any objections to the                  
  motion.  Hearing none, the AMENDMENT was ADOPTED.                            
                                                                               
  Number 538                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT NUMBER TWO.                    
  There were no objections, and IT WAS SO ORDERED.                             
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT NUMBER THREE.                  
  There were no objections, and IT WAS SO ORDERED.                             
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT NUMBER FOUR.                   
  There were no objections, and IT WAS SO ORDERED.                             
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT NUMBER FIVE.                   
  Without objection, the AMENDMENT was ADOPTED.                                
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE MOVED to ADOPT AMENDMENT NUMBER SIX,                    
  proposed in prior discussion, which was not part of the                      
  Utermohle packet.                                                            
                                                                               
  Number 548                                                                   
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIR HUDSON repeated the wording of the amendment:                     
  INSERT after "licenses" on page 2, line 25 of HB 172: "and                   
  other outlets at the discretion of the commissioner."                        
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked if there were any objections to the                  
  adoption of amendment six.  Without objection, the AMENDMENT                 
  was ADOPTED.                                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 552                                                                   
                                                                               
  JOHN GEORGE, ALASKA OUTDOOR COUNCIL, told the committee that                 
  HB 172 has the support of a number of sportsmen's clubs.  He                 
  noted with the pressure on the ADF&G's budget, this user-pay                 
  program would help alleviate the squeeze on the budget.                      
                                                                               
  Number 560                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE commented he would not want to see                      
  diminished general fund support of the ADF&G in an amount                    
  equal to the amount of revenues from the wildlife                            
  conservation tag program.                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 577                                                                   
                                                                               
  MARY FORBES, ALASKA ENVIRONMENTAL LOBBY VOLUNTEER, stated                    
  her support for HB 172, and stressed that a strong marketing                 
  campaign would be the key to the program's success.  She                     
  recommended a kick-off attention-getting campaign, such as a                 
  design contest among Alaska schools.  She said the                           
  Environmental Lobby believed people will be happy to                         
  participate in the program if they were aware of it and knew                 
  how the funds would be used.                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 590                                                                   
                                                                               
  TOM GARRETT, ALASKA VISITORS ASSOCIATION (AVA), addressed                    
  the committee, mentioning that in addition to his role with                  
  the AVA, he was also general manager of Alaska Discovery                     
  Tours.  He said that company ran about 70 tour packages in                   
  the state, among which were day trips to the Stan Price Bear                 
  Sanctuary, mentioned in HB 172 as potentially requiring a                    
  wildlife conservation tag for entry.                                         
                                                                               
  MR. GARRETT said the AVA supports the motivations for HB
  172, and had recommendations for amendments to make the bill                 
  work better.  He noted Alaska's wildlife was integral to the                 
  marketing of tour companies.  Therefore, he added, the ADF&G                 
  was a key player in Alaska's tourism industry, whether they                  
  wanted to be or not.  He noted the political and economic                    
  clout of Alaska's visitors to influence decisions regarding                  
  game management, as evidenced by the recent boycott after                    
  announcements the state would engage in aerial wolf hunts.                   
                                                                               
  MR. GARRETT suggested as common property, Alaska's wildlife                  
  resources should be managed for the highest and best use of                  
  Alaskans, without regard for the amount of money collected                   
  by the ADF&G through special fees.  He stressed efforts to                   
  collect money for management of non-game wildlife activities                 
  should be voluntary.  A broad based market driven program of                 
  wildlife stamps would be the most effective way to generate                  
  large amounts of revenue, he believed.                                       
                                                                               
  MR. GARRETT commented that if priced correctly (under $10)                   
  and marketed so that visitors have convenient access, the                    
  AVA estimated closer to half a million dollars in revenue                    
  could be generated.  Regarding the tag being required for                    
  entry, he said the AVA considered that a separate issue from                 
  a voluntary wildlife stamp program.  He added entry fees                     
  should not be one mandatory across the board amount, but                     
  should be adjusted to the type of activity and resource.  As                 
  an example he noted a $15 entry fee to view Potters Marsh                    
  would be unreasonable, while a similar fee to enter the                      
  McNeil River area would be justifiable.                                      
                                                                               
  MR. GARRETT also recommended the effective date of the                       
  program proposed in HB 172 be timed to allow the visitor                     
  industry to react in its marketing.  He said for the 1993                    
  visitor season, prices were already set and tour packages                    
  arranged.  He suggested the prices be set in statute and not                 
  left to the discretion of the ADF&G's Commissioner.                          
                                                                               
  MR. GARRETT referred again to entry into the Stan Price Bear                 
  Sanctuary, and noted the U.S. Forest Service (USFS) managed                  
  the area jointly with the state, and charged a fee to                        
  visitors, called a "scheduling fee" and not an "entry fee."                  
  He recommended any fee for entry into that area be                           
  coordinated with the USFS so the total fee to the visitor is                 
  charged in one amount that was not out of line.  In closing,                 
  he remarked that the AVA supported the concept of HB 172 and                 
  the state's efforts to generate revenue through creative                     
  market driven programs.                                                      
                                                                               
  Number 688                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS noted in response to Mr. Garrett's remarks                 
  regarding the effective date, that HB 172 had an effective                   
  date of January 1, 1994.                                                     
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE commented that the proposed fee for                     
  entry into areas like Stan Price and McNeil River was small                  
  in comparison to the cost to the state of managing those                     
  areas.  He expressed concern with what he termed a mixed                     
  message from the AVA.  He said they were willing to have the                 
  state pay tens of millions of dollars to promote their                       
  private industry, and yet were resistant to a $15 fee.                       
                                                                               
  TAPE 93-24, SIDE B                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER asked Mr. Bruce for his reaction to                    
  the two-tier pricing structure proposed by Mr. Garrett.  He                  
  referred to the example of the Potters Marsh area, and                       
  agreed that a $15 fee would be too much.                                     
                                                                               
  MR. BRUCE responded that this was the reason the ADF&G had                   
  requested the discretion to set prices, so that fees could                   
  be fine tuned to the area, the cost of services, and the                     
  type of use.  He added there would be opportunities for                      
  public comment and the ADF&G would not adopt a fee schedule                  
  that would meet with the objections of the very people they                  
  wanted to attract.                                                           
                                                                               
  Number 052                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES remarked on the suggestion by Mr.                      
  Garrett that the two ideas be addressed separately (one                      
  entry fee and one tag or stamp program).  This would allow                   
  the wildlife conservation stamp (or tag or pin) to be                        
  marketed on a broad basis as a voluntary contribution.  A                    
  separate entry fee program would allow the flexibility                       
  needed to set fees for various areas and allow for waivers.                  
                                                                               
  Number 078                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES commented on the cost                         
  involved in managing wildlife areas and making them                          
  available for public use.  She supported the theory behind                   
  HB 172, that would require those using wildlife areas to                     
  help support them.                                                           
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE referred to the Potters Marsh area, and                 
  stated he would not lose any sleep over the visitors being                   
  charged $15 each.                                                            
                                                                               
  Number 112                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON expressed concern that the legislature                 
  and the ADF&G should not enter into a program that would                     
  eventually require Alaskans to purchase an entry tag to use                  
  a variety of areas that had not previously been regulated.                   
  He also asked about trademark or copyright protection of                     
  whatever type of tag, stamp, or pin used in the program.                     
                                                                               
  Number 157                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. KELLEYHOUSE understood the committee's concerns, and                     
  said that the ADF&G would be careful not to price people out                 
  of the market, and that any required fee would be set with                   
  actual costs in mind.  In response to Representative                         
  Hudson's concern about trademark or copyright of the state's                 
  design for a pin or tag, he was not well-versed in copyright                 
  law, but thought it would not hurt to have a protective                      
  clause regarding the logo or design.                                         
                                                                               
  Number 204                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN took issue with Representative                    
  Bunde's previous remarks about the AVA.  He noted the AVA                    
  had been one of the few groups in the state to come forward                  
  in favor of a statewide sales tax.                                           
                                                                               
  Number 223                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE GREEN noted Potters Marsh was in his                          
  district, and said he visited the area often.  He remarked                   
  on a potential problem with regulating entry into the area.                  
  He said the way HB 172 was written, he would be able to                      
  visit the facility because he had a hunting license.  His                    
  wife, however, does not.  He asked how the program would                     
  allow for such situations, and how the ADF&G might enforce                   
  entry requirements.                                                          
                                                                               
  Number 238                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS clarified the program was voluntary, and                   
  noted the only two areas slated under HB 172 for entry fees                  
  were McNeil River and Walrus Island.                                         
                                                                               
  Number 245                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JAMES saw the wildlife tag as a very                          
  worthwhile program, and as the tag became available she                      
  promised to buy one for herself and every member of her                      
  family, and encourage her neighbors to purchase the tag as                   
  well.   She said the proposed $15 fee was nominal and the                    
  benefits would be great.                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 260                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE agreed with Representative James that                   
  there was no free lunch.  He reiterated HB 172 only required                 
  the entry tag for two areas, which he perceived as a                         
  weakness of HB 172.  He said the program might fail because                  
  it was voluntary, as has happened with similar programs in                   
  other states.                                                                
                                                                               
  Number 270                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN referred to page 3 of HB 172,                     
  which stated Potters Marsh was an area where the entry fee                   
  would not be required.                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 285                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES objected to negative characterizations                 
  and innuendoes expressed previously regarding those who did                  
  not use wildlife resources for hunting or fishing.  He said                  
  those people had an equal interest and right to the use of                   
  the wildlife.  He also expressed concern over pricing of the                 
  tag, noting that it should be reasonably priced if the state                 
  expected to make the program work.                                           
                                                                               
  Number 300                                                                   
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIR HUDSON made a MOTION to MOVE HB 172 with                          
  unanimous consent, as amended, with individual                               
  recommendations.  He added the motion would include the                      
  fiscal note from the ADF&G.                                                  
                                                                               
  Number 309                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked if there were any objections to the                  
  motion.  Hearing none, HB 172 with the ADF&G fiscal note was                 
  MOVED from committee with individual recommendations.                        
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS announced the next item for the                            
  committee's attention would be discussion of the                             
  subcommittee's recommendations on the Mental Health Lands                    
  Trust Settlement.                                                            
                                                                               
  Number 326                                                                   
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIR HUDSON, who chaired the subcommittee, reported                    
  that he had worked with Representatives James, Davies and                    
  Carney, as well as others who were not members of the                        
  subcommittee.  It was the subcommittee's recommendation that                 
  the House Resources Committee sponsor and introduce a bill                   
  identical to SB 67 with one exception.  He said the                          
  subcommittee was unable to identify the justification for                    
  the six percent revenue stream called for in SB 67, and                      
  instead recommended a three percent amount.                                  
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIR HUDSON said the subcommittee recognized the                       
  percentage would be open to debate among all concerned                       
  groups. He referred to the report of the subcommittee in                     
  members' files, which identified various alternatives,                       
  including a lease-back program.  He said the problem with                    
  that alternative was the same as the state faced with the                    
  land exchange solution.  Another option was a cash pay-off,                  
  which was not recommended because of the cost.                               
                                                                               
  Number 360                                                                   
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIR HUDSON noted since SB 67 was a known commodity,                   
  the various parties who wanted to see the issue settled                      
  might find this proposed legislation to be a possible                        
  solution.  He noted while SB 67 has not won the enthusiastic                 
  support of the Attorney General, it has not been rejected                    
  either.  Regarding the anticipated revenues based on the six                 
  percent versus three percent figures, Vice Chair Hudson said                 
  that based on FY 94 unrestricted revenues, six percent would                 
  equal approximately $140 million and three percent would be                  
  $70 million.                                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 412                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JAMES commented on the concerns the                           
  subcommittee faced.  First was the issue of the courts.                      
  Even if the legislature passed a bill, she said there would                  
  be no guarantee that the courts would accept it as a                         
  settlement.  She preferred a document more closely related                   
  to the court order already in existence.  The problem has                    
  been on the failure of the parties to agree on how much to                   
  pay, she stated.  Regarding the reconstitution of the trust,                 
  she does not believe the land exchanges would ever come to                   
  fruition.                                                                    
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said she would like to see an actual                    
  dollar amount in capital and operating expenditures that the                 
  state has paid for its mental health programs since 1978                     
  until 1992.  She said this amount should be incorporated                     
  into the purchase price for the lands that could not be                      
  given to the parties to the settlement.                                      
                                                                               
  Number 437                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JAMES referred to SB 67, and said it was her                  
  understanding that in order to guarantee the revenue stream,                 
  the state has to give the plaintiffs a secured interest in                   
  the Legislatively Designated Areas (LDAs).  If the                           
  plaintiffs did not want the LDAs, then giving them those                     
  lands would not work.  She suggested giving them those lands                 
  now and paying rent on them.                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 452                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE PAT CARNEY commented that there would be                      
  plenty of opportunity once a house bill was introduced for                   
  Representative James' concerns to be addressed and debated.                  
                                                                               
  Number 458                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE GREEN concurred, adding that he has heard at                  
  least one of the attorneys of the non-settling plaintiffs                    
  indicated he was amenable to the solution posed by the                       
  proposed legislation.  He stressed a settlement should be                    
  reached quickly, because potential users of the land were                    
  being lost as long as the land was tied up in litigation.                    
                                                                               
  Number 476                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JAMES was not opposed to getting some piece                   
  of legislation on the table.                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 478                                                                   
                                                                               
  VICE CHAIR HUDSON noted the lease-back situation had been                    
  discussed in subcommittee, and the option could be discussed                 
  and public testimony taken once a bill was before the                        
  committee.  He recommended the committee submit for                          
  introduction the February 26, 1993 Chenoweth draft, with the                 
  House Resources Committee as sponsor.                                        
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS noted there should be a motion on the                      
  table for the committee to sponsor the draft legislation.                    
                                                                               
  Number 495                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JAMES MOVED that the House Resources                          
  Committee sponsor the draft legislation as a house bill.                     
                                                                               
  Number 500                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked if there were any objection to the                   
  motion,  Without objection, the MOTION PASSED.                               
                                                                               
  ANNOUNCEMENTS                                                                
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS announced the House Resources Committee                    
  would next meet on Monday, March 8, and Wednesday, March 10,                 
  1993, at 8:00 a.m., to hear testimony on the confirmation of                 
  appointees to the Board of Fisheries and the Board of Game.                  
  He noted there was a legal question pending on the                           
  nomination of one game board member, and requested committee                 
  members read the legal opinion on the issue that was                         
  distributed to them.                                                         
                                                                               
  ADJOURNMENT                                                                  
                                                                               
  There being no further business to come before the House                     
  Resources Committee, Chairman Williams adjourned the meeting                 
  at 9:21 a.m.                                                                 

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